Hey, Athletes! Would you try tart cherry juice if I told you it would improve your performance? Listen in to this week’s episode to learn about this and more!
Episode 43 of The Garage Gym Athlete Podcast is up!
This week the four-ship are back at it again. They give us their updates on life, training, and Jerred’s new book coming out next month! They then dive into this week’s study over tart cherry juice. They discuss how cherry juice can improve your performance and may be helpful during fit-week or competitions. The team then give their own takeaways for this month’s book called Leaders Eat Last by Simon Sinek. You should definitely get your hands on a copy!
Lastly, this week’s Meet Yourself Saturday workout is called Burpees Save Me and the coaches give their recommendations on how to tackle this one.
If you haven’t already, be sure to subscribe to the Garage Gym Athlete podcast either on Stitcher, iTunes, or Google Play by using the link below:
IN THIS 54-MINUTE EPISODE WE DISCUSS:
- Leaders Eat Last by Simon Sinek
- Tart Cherry Juice
- Staying On Track During COVID-19
- Kyle Switching Tracks
- Burpees Save Me
- Killing Comfort Release Date
- Updates and Announcements
- And A LOT MORE!!
If you want to go a little bit deeper on this episode, here are some links for you:
Study of the Week
- The Efficacy of Tart Cherry Juice in Aiding Recovery After Intermittent Exercise
- Tart Cherry Juice in Athletes: A Literature Review and Commentary
- Effect of Tart Cherry Juice on Recovery and Next Day Performance in Well-Trained Water Polo Players
- The Total Antioxidant Content of More Than 3100 Foods, Beverages, Spices, Herbs and Supplements Used Worldwide
- Anthocyanins of Fruits and Vegetables – Their Occurrence, Analysis and Role in Human Nutrition
Garage Gym Athlete Workout of the Week
Be sure to listen to this week’s episode:
Related Resources at End of Three Fitness:
Thanks for listening to the podcast, and if you have any questions be sure to add it to the comments below!
To becoming better!
[00:00:00] Jerred Moon: All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the garage gym athlete podcast. Jerred moon here with Kyle from. Oh, Hey John. How you doing man?
Kyle Shrum: I’m good. I’m good. Things are going well.
Jerred Moon: Yeah. Joe. Hi, how are you? I’m here. And then Ashley, what’s up? So I have a question for you guys to save for podcast.
Ashley Hicks: Oh, no.
Jerred Moon: Have you guys read the book? Can’t hurt me by David Goggins. Never heard of it. Never. Oh wait. Yeah,
Joe Courtney: you’ve heard of it.
Jerred Moon: You’ve heard of it. So who, who did the audio book? Just me and Kyle. Okay. Yes. So I did something very interesting in the audio book where he had someone else read it, but then after each chapter, they would do a breakdown.
Of like the chapter and David Goggins would talk and I think David just didn’t want to read his own book,
Joe Courtney: so I was just thinking,
Jerred Moon: I get it, I guess. So I’m recording the audio book for killing comfort right now. I’m just gonna publicly announced. Do you guys [00:01:00] want to do the in between chapter thing? Yup.
All right. And now I also want to hear from the community. Do you, would you guys rather just hear me, my voice reading a book? For a few hours or would you like for the team to hop on after every chapter? I mean, my chapters aren’t like, I don’t know though. I don’t know if like David Goggins was telling his life story that’s not, I have some personal stories in the book, but a lot of times it’s not a personal story.
So you read like listen to a chapter and then you’d be like, I don’t really have anything to say after that. Thank you for the information. So I don’t know. We’ll see. Maybe we’ll try it. We’ll do like a beta chapter. Like I’ll try chapter one and then see how you guys do or how you guys like it. Should I say it’s not an audition?
See, you guys like it.
Joe Courtney: I don’t have a closet. I can hide it into record.
Jerred Moon: Well,
Kyle Shrum: yeah, I don’t have any, audio slash moving blankets either.
Jerred Moon: Well, my house is equipped with multiple [00:02:00] closets and you can get a moving blanket just about anywhere. So. Hey Kay, I know you all have a closet. Quit messing around
Kyle Shrum: to your
Jerred Moon: house.
Kyle Shrum: I thought you were inviting us out to use your multiple
Jerred Moon: closets trying to joke or brag about having closets in my house. Like doesn’t everyone have a closet in their house? Actually, I’ve been to your house. I’ve seen your closet. I’m just. Okay. So, everyone listening, let us know if you, you know, the Facebook group, let us know if you guys want to do that because it doesn’t really change how I record it.
Like I would still record chapter, I’ll be the one reading it, but then if we want to do these, like post chapter one review, or we can do maybe parts or something like that. So everybody let me know. And I did say I’d probably have a date. I dunno. it’s looking like a really strong chance of May 19th, so really strong chance May 19th.
It, there are some changes that had to be made in the book, last minute stuff, and I should have a copy in hand, [00:03:00] kind of like Ashley style after the podcast. I should have, like, it’ll be here as soon as the podcast is over. I’m very excited. I was hoping it would be here before we recorded this episode.
but it should be here. It’ll probably get delivered while I’m. While we’re chatting. So the book is coming. I’m thinking May 19th if that changes, I’ll let you guys know, but that is the 90% sure date right now. Unless changes take longer than that and a lot more information to come. That’s my only update.
Oh no. One other update since I’ll just go first with my updates. I hit the first three weeks of the, this cycle, like. Real hard and I feel like this de-load week I’ve just been dragging, like just like, and that’s pretty uncommon for me. Like I, I was excited to be back on, hard to kill. Like I was all fired up about it and I think I want a little, little too hard.
And I’ve been, this has really been a huge recovery cause we’re recording this during de-load week. It’s been a huge recovery week for me. Then like some lingering soreness. I don’t feel like I’m recovering as fast and I’m listening to my body in that regard. So trying to get [00:04:00] as much sleep as possible and really focused on recovery, but also not taking it as serious with some of the de-load workouts, like going even lighter than what might be prescribed and things like that.
So, yeah, that’s, that’s my update. I
Kyle Shrum: think we’re getting a lot of that from the group too. There’s a lot of people in the community that are sitting in hard to kill. De-load is kind of taking them for a ride right now.
Jerred Moon: Yeah, it’s. Sometimes I wonder who’s to blame for that. I don’t know. I don’t know. We should move on.
Joe, how’s this? How’s life?
Joe Courtney: All right. Am I missing running? I want to get back to running some more, but weather in Maryland is crap right now, so I kind of can’t. I ran yesterday though. I’m only been working like once a week because there’s only been like one decent day of weather a week, so I ran yesterday and my hamstrings are crazy sore and it’s both good and bad.
I think. So I love, I still love cycling facilities and the bike, and I did it twice this week and like a bunch last week, but I feel like it’s hurting my running performance. And I don’t know if it’s just how I pedal, [00:05:00] but I, I don’t think I’d get anything in my hamstrings or my, or my glutes and I try and focus on them, but I’ll have clipping shoes.
So it’s more of just pushing the pedals down with my quads and not much else. And I try and think about it as I’m going through like, okay, curl, curl. You’re like curling my legs. But it’s just, I just don’t get much out of it in the back so that I go for a run and I’m. Super sore the next day and then like my a also while I’m running, it takes a lot to get going because just like I guess lingering for my hamstring injury, which is a guess was less than six months ago still, but since I’ve just mostly biking, it’s been hard to actually like build the hamstrings and stuff back.
It’s just feel like I cannot run fast at
Jerred Moon: all, so, okay. Few things. Right. No. I think the clip in need definitely need get some clippings, man, that’s big.
Joe Courtney: That’s just seems like crazy. It’s like, dude, these fancy shoes, and then I’m
Jerred Moon: just like limping guys. Why don’t you be that guy when you’re clipped in? It’s serious.
Like I have a clip in [00:06:00] everything now and it’s like, yeah,
Joe Courtney: yeah. That’s kind of what I told Liz, but I also have to wait till I get my bike, which is when we move, which is, I don’t know, two months from now, maybe. Two or three months. Yeah. So cause then I’d have to get the new pedals and the clips, including shoes, just through that.
Jerred Moon: Well, and then I have a question about the weather. Is it like, is it dangerous outside? Are there like tornadoes and stuff? Like why wouldn’t you run outside. It’s
Joe Courtney: been on and off, raining and storming a lot lately. It’s also pretty cold for my, for my tastes like, you know, in the forties and stuff, but just a ton of rain.
I’m not, I’m not doing another spot. I don’t need to ring if I don’t have to run in the bank.
Jerred Moon: That’s what I was getting at.
Joe Courtney: But maybe even yesterday was, it was like 30 like the fields like was 39 or 40 but it was sunny, so I went for a run. It was still felt
Jerred Moon: okay. Gotcha. No, I get it. I’m wearing a hoodie right now and it’s like 85 degrees outside.
Joe Courtney: That’s,
Jerred Moon: just throw that in there. So he ordered a chill dad, which is awesome. So I can’t wait to [00:07:00] get an update on that. It might be awhile
Kyle Shrum: out. A sponsor,
Jerred Moon: not a sponsor. All the products we, Oh, I guess I do have another update. speaking of not sponsors, I’m returning my whoop and getting an aura ring. So there it is.
Yeah. Well, I mean, I might go back to like, I have like five, whoops. Let’s just be real clear about that. I have like a bunch of them. so it’s not like, Oh, getting rid of, I’m, I’m getting rid of the one. I just bought a and sending that one back and. I w I got to try to, after our conversation, our last podcast about wearables, I had to, like, I was like, you know what, I keep mentioning this ordering, I need to try it out.
So I want to try to order ordering out. If I don’t like it, I’ll return the order ring, you know? But I, I really want to try it out and see if their readiness recovery stuff is more on par with, you know, just some of the junk I was talking about. So I’m gonna give that a try. I’ll let everybody know how that goes.
And Ashley, what’s up.
Ashley Hicks: I think, I am [00:08:00] on the planner game. A lot of people saying that planners, are useless. And I have loved my planner, a ton. I find that if I write stuff down that I will do stuff and I’m able to create a routine within, Create a routine within, I don’t know, the chaos, I guess.
And I ended up buying a new planner and I’m super excited about it. I like Emily Ley’s planner for me because it’s super simple and it kind of breaks down your day out in hours, and then you have a to do list next to it. So I’m able to check things off and have a to do list. So I’m on the planner game, even though people are like, they’re pointless right now, but I’m absolutely loving it.
Jerred Moon: so I 10000% agree with you. Like. When, when the whole pandemic thing happened, like I got more like getting more organized and more into my planner, even though like, yeah, whatever, there’s, you know, I get why people might argue against it. That helps me. Yeah. That helps me like stay centered and stay focused and stay on top of things.
So like I, [00:09:00] I very much in agreement with that. I think getting into a planner and diving into something like that when things are just a lot different than this is, I mean, just playing this whole thing out like. It’s been different than I thought. You know, we kind of joked about like, Hey, we all work from home or whatever, but like not being able to go anywhere, kids not being able to go anywhere.
Restaurants, like all these things, like it’s been a, it’s been weird, like it’s been more weird than I thought it was going to be. Yeah.
Ashley Hicks: Definitely. and then the only other thing for me is we are still doing these family walks and I’m absolutely loving them. Scott and I have great conversations on these walks and we go from anywhere from like a 30 minute walk to on Sundays.
We’ve, we’ve made it a tradition now that we’ll go on a super long family walk. We’ll do like a five miler and I don’t know, I just really like. Get it out of the house and, kind of changing it up. So
Jerred Moon: yeah, that’s, I think that’s a really good family tradition right there. Yeah. [00:10:00] Cool. Kyle, how’s life man?
Kyle Shrum: Life is good. I’m making the switch to shred Trek. And talked to Jerred about it a little bit.
Jerred Moon: I granted him permission to do an inter cycle switch.
Kyle Shrum: Yeah. It’s not something that we really, advertise. It’s not something we suggest to people, but, just, got some different goals that have changed up, need to switch.
And. Making that, making that change. Also, I’ve noticed being on the, strength track with the conditioning we’re doing, we’re doing a whole lot of zone two and so the zone two has actually been helping me and making me more fit because I’m having to try harder in the zone too. To stay in the zone too.
So like not coming down out of zone two and also it’s taken me longer to get there, like with the different conditioning we’ve got going on. So it’s making me try harder and I don’t like it, so I’m having to go faster.
Jerred Moon: That’s good.
Kyle Shrum: But it is good, but I don’t know it. [00:11:00] Yeah. Anyway, it’s good.
Jerred Moon: Well, for some people, like zone two is a walk, you know, instead of like you go and you just go on a walk and then.
Some people. That’s not the case in the more you do it, you’re like, you like what you’re saying. What you’re experiencing is exactly what I’ve noticed lately is I, I could probably like start and we’ve kind of talked about this, like I can start a run and then I might have to like go do it, like run, walk, and now I can kind of just like jog.
Slowly and stay in zone two and I’m like, Oh damn it. Now I just have to run for an hour.
Kyle Shrum: And I’ve been doing mine on the air done mostly. So it’s like I’m having to go faster on the air done and, and I can, it’s weird because like I’ll come off and I’ll just use my legs on the airtime and. It all kind of stayed the same.
But then when I put my arms in the air down and start using everything, my heart rate actually goes down and I’m like, I feel like I’m doing more work. How’s ma? Maybe my heart’s just messed up. I don’t know. It’s in my heart or my Fitbit. It’s,
Jerred Moon: it’s probably the thing, I’m gone with the [00:12:00] Fitbit just, I mean, you could go get an East ECG, EKG, whatever done and, figured out.
Kyle Shrum: anyway, that’s fine. But Megan, the switch just shred. So coming off a strength so. Gonna be sad to see it go. But anyway.
Jerred Moon: Cool. Well that’s, that’s update world. Let’s get into the study. So this week we have the efficacy of tart cherry juice in aiding recovery after intermittent exercise. this is done in 2020.
So the purpose of the study was to investigate exactly what I just said, and they had eight males. So 20 participants, eight male, 12 female, actually more females than males. They consume tart cherry juice, which is naturally high in polyphenols. Or they consumed a placebo for eight days with generous bouts of exercise, on the sixth day.
So they were taking the, the cherry juice for several days, almost a week before they, for they did the, [00:13:00] the test. And so the study consists of four visits and blah, blah, blah. They did the, They did the different visits. Let’s see. The placebo juice was less than 5% fruit content, and everyone else had like legit cherry juice.
and what ended up happening was the, all the blood stuff related to recovery did not show any recovery metrics. So, but all of the physical performance metrics like. In the session, did show, results. So if that makes sense without getting into like all the tests and exactly what they did, but like C reactive protein, creatine kinase, all those things, inflammation, blood markers, really no effect, but the NC, what were the actual things that they did?
Ashley Hicks: 20 meters sprint
Jerred Moon: one, then? Yeah, 20 meters, sprint time, counter movement, jump height and maximal voluntary contraction of strength. So that’s what they did. [00:14:00] Those three things, all of those improved. And even improved in the same session sometimes. So they recovered faster and were able to put out more work, but none of their blood markers show that they were recovered in.
To put it in the simplest terms possible. And that’s about all I have to say to kind of introduce the study. I’d love to get your thoughts on it. Kyle.
Kyle Shrum: So the biggest thing that it did was it increased like what you were saying and increased the functional recovery. so it didn’t really, there wasn’t a whole lot of, repair to muscle damage is what it was talking about.
And so maybe, maybe I would like to see maybe a study on something that was a little bit more taxing. something that causes more muscle damage to say if it would do the same thing. But the nature of the exercises they were using in the test weren’t really . They die or they were taxing, but they didn’t cause muscle damage in the first place.
A whole lot of it anyway. And so, but it did [00:15:00] increase the functional recovery, like you were talking about. Even if you don’t see the markers in the blood, you are still actually performing better and you were recovering more quickly. So that was really good.
Jerred Moon: yeah. And it was like placebo controlled.
So what the. Some people, nobody knew what they got, but the researchers knew. So not double-blind, but, I guess that’s single blind. yeah. And that performance was actually like quite a bit better in those, those regards. But you’re saying you’d like to see like like a lot of like volume work or something done, like maybe, Oh, input, dark cherry and a strength program or something like that.
Kyle Shrum: Yeah, something like that. Something that’s different than just, Endurance. It was mostly endurance work that they were doing. They were doing sprint intervals and things like that. I, I don’t know, I’d just like to see a study also. This one was kind of small there, you know, there was only 20 people.
I think CNN, a broader, a broader base of, test subjects would be, would be cooler
Jerred Moon: to, how about you, Jay? What were some of your [00:16:00] takeaways? My
Joe Courtney: thoughts were kind of like, Oh, that’s really cool. And then also it’s like, yeah, that’s all right. And in between because
Jerred Moon: it’s like you got excited at first and then you’re like, well, maybe not.
Joe Courtney: It’s a mix between, because the performance and gains are awesome. I mean, if you can have that much for recovery to help your performance, that’s fantastic. But they were having two, eight ounce glasses a day for like a week before, and it takes like three days for to get the full benefits. So you’re basically drinking it all.
You got to drink every day. You’re at the gym, you have two glasses of cherry juice, and then. Even doing those that after a long period of time. Might be kind of weird. So I think it’d be really cool. And also like what’s cool about is that it’s really easy to do, like just go find some really good quality, tart cherry juice, but do so when you’re gonna be being like really high intensity stuff or like really, really pushing it to like week three before de-load week or like after some, some really hard training pre, I’m like.
Me yourself [00:17:00] Saturdays or events and stuff to recover from a, so I think, yeah, it’s really cool to go into, and they are the , whatever you call them are in other foods, but tartare just has a whole lot of them.
Jerred Moon: Anthocyanins yeah, that’s true. Yeah. no, I, I agree with you. I think I see this being used as like fit week.
To be honest, because I don’t think, I don’t think if I were start drinking it now and I want to do MERF in a week, that’s really what we’re looking for. It’s more repeated bouts that it seems to help with. So I think if you’re having to hit one event and then another event, and then maybe an event the next day, more like fit week, I think that this could be beneficial.
And that’s where I’m most interested in trying it out. Ashley, what were some of your takeaways? Yeah,
Ashley Hicks: to piggyback on that, I, this made me think of back in my CrossFit days, like a CrossFit competition. So maybe prior to that, cause you ha you have multiple events that you have to do. And so. [00:18:00] If your recovery is getting better and you’re able to do more, maybe you will be able to do more in that kind of setting.
Again, I don’t know. I would have to obviously try it out and then obviously it improved, significantly. So that was on the plus side for me. But it also talked about a little bit that if you took it too much. So let’s say you just drank cherry juice for. Months that it actually could potentially hinder your performance.
And so that to me was kind of like, okay, well maybe you should only use it for what you talked about fit week or a competition or whatnot, and not continually take tart cherry juice. You know? For a long time. but for me it was more like, I would rather get more nutrient dense food and stuff to get the, say the word again.
Jerred Moon: anthocyanin. Yes.
Ashley Hicks: then just the tart cherry
Jerred Moon: juice. Yeah. And what you’re saying is a heavily debated [00:19:00] topic, specifically in the endurance world of . Antioxidants help our bodies like our ourselves recover, recover, right? They like get rid of free radicals and stuff, but. If you overdo it with antioxidants, this, and this is not me stating fact, this is me staying in the debate.
If you overdo with the antioxidants, then it can almost hinder like the inflammation that’s needed for you to see progress. Because we all know like the, the theory of a super compensation, right? We break our muscles down, they rebuild, they real, they rebuild bigger and better, and that’s, that’s essentially how fitness works.
But if you hire, if you over recover. with too many antioxidants, your body doesn’t get to go through much of the super compensation. Now, that was really big a couple of years ago, and I think that it’s way more heavily debated now. Like I think, I think the only people who were running into that are people who like, you can get antioxidants supplements like in pill form and just pop those like.
All day. That’s where it becomes a little bit more debated. I can’t see like, [00:20:00] man, I had had too many blueberries. Like I’m like recovering, like Wolverine. Like this is a problem. Like I don’t think that that’s going to be an issue. And I think that’s kind of where the debate is starting because yeah, if you’re submitting with like synthetic antioxidants or whatever, like might be an issue.
But if you’re just eating a lot of fruits and vegetables, I don’t see that ever being problem. It
Joe Courtney: reminds me when we talked about the ice baths. Like if you need to recover really fast, ice baths and stuff like that are going to be great because they’ll reduce your inflammation for the next day, but there’s a reason for live information.
So if you don’t need to get back on the horse and perform good, then just let your body do its normal thing. So like this E normal age to try and get him in other ways, but you don’t need to be drinking two cups of cherry juice all the time. But after the next event that I do, I’m going to take a cherry juice bath, like Gatorade bath.
I’m just going to dump it all over. It’s soak into my hair follicles and
Jerred Moon: I’ll have to find a steady on the, the outside of the body approach. Yeah. Just
Joe Courtney: full body absorption.
Jerred Moon: Yeah. Yeah, I [00:21:00] think, I think it’s pretty interesting. I already mentioned it. I want to try it. pre fit week. I think I would try that and I wouldn’t do this in perpetuity just because I don’t, I don’t think I will enjoy tart cherry juice that much.
I don’t, I don’t. I like cherries, so we’ll see. But I’ve never going to try it. I didn’t want to try it. Next fit week. And for anyone, wanting to try it. Joe kind of mentioned it, but it looks like it’s eight to 12 fluid ounces of tart cherry juice, or at least one fluid ounce of tart cherry concentrate a twice per day for at least a few days prior to the exercise bout, on the day of the bout and into the recovery period.
So there’s a lot of cherry juice. We’re, we’re Downing. And so I think, I think it’s worth a try. It’s not that expensive to get some cherry juice, but then. we can provide a link to this in the show notes, but there’s, I don’t know if you call us a study or just like a scientific paper on anthocyanin content in different fruits or vegetables.
And I’ll kind of give you the [00:22:00] breakdown. So what are we, we’re talking about cherries here. So cherries range from 3,500 to 4,500 milligrams per kilogram of anthocyanins. And then. Some of the other top contenders, just if you don’t want to do cherries. Have you guys ever heard of a chokeberry?
Joe Courtney: No.
Jerred Moon: Literally one word. First word choke. First part of the word choke. I have not. okay, so moving on. That one is really high. If you want to slam some choke berries, I think it’s the most recorded here. So it’s, it’s fifth, 5,000 to 10,000 milligrams per kilogram, which out does the, Cherry by quite a bit.
And then, w what do you have? elderberry. So I’m the low end. Elderberry is 2000 on the high end. It’s 15,600, so that’s quite a bit. And then we have, blueberries [00:23:00] were ranged from 825 milligrams per kilogram up to 5,300. Okay. All right. So that is, I’m trying to see if there are any others in here.
We’ll, we’ll link to it so you guys can go check it. But those are some other options. you could try blackberries, blueberries, choke berries. And elderberry for similar, similar content.
Kyle Shrum: So there’s chokeberry is native to Minnesota, so
Jerred Moon: that is, that sounds made up
Joe Courtney: up there.
Jerred Moon: I’m not saying I don’t believe you, but like what’s native to a state? Like why does that. Never heard that before. They just
Joe Courtney: hoarded them all. They burned down all the old ones. They’re only a sort of main import export.
Jerred Moon: wait, Minnesota soda, it’s Chris from Minnesota. Chris Morgan. Is he, or is he Michigan may, I don’t know.
Joe Courtney: There’s all runs together out there.
Jerred Moon: Well, he’ll let us know. yeah, I’m gonna, I’m gonna ask him if he’s, if he knows about these choke berries. It hope it’s on [00:24:00] their license plate. Yeah. Home of the chokeberry high in anthocyanins. That’s their state motto actually. Okay. We are not getting carried away.
Okay. That, that’s it. I think I would definitely try it. And as mentioned, Now, the only other thing I wanted to mention, we talked about one study with 20 people. There are a lot of studies on tart cherry, which is crazy. I didn’t think that there would be, I don’t know why this is so heavily. Researched, but it’s awesome that it is.
And overall, the literature, says that tart cherry juice or concentrate can facilitate recovery from a variety of vigorous or high impact exercise tasks, including marathon running long distance running on rough terrain, a centric exercise, cycling, sprinting, and resistance exercise. So the scientific consensus.
Is tart cherry is effective beyond just this one study. And we can link to a lot of the other studies, in the [00:25:00] show notes, but yeah, try it out. Try out some tart cherry and also just eat your fruits and vegetables maybe. And that’ll help too. all right, topic. We’re getting into the book, that, so it’s the end of the month.
We normally cover a book and this month’s book was. Yeah. Leaders eat last by Simon Sinek. Let’s just, let’s just go over that. Joe. Kyle, what’d you think of the book?
Kyle Shrum: I really enjoyed the book actually. I enjoyed his other book that I’ve read. I know he’s written a few. I don’t know how,
Jerred Moon: I think.
Kyle Shrum: Yeah. but I’ve read start with why from him as well, which I thought it was, which I also thought was really good. but this one is, it’s, it’s applicable. It’s written specifically. I want to say specifically mostly to businesses, like business leaders, companies, and he talks a lot about that, about how to [00:26:00] lead a companies and things like that.
But he uses examples from outside the business world. and so it’s, it’s really good and it’s applicable to anybody that’s really in any kind of leadership position and, or wants to be in a leadership position or anything like that. There’s just some really, really good things in there that I took away.
He talks about in the, in the Marines, in, in their officer training. There is a situation where, and he was, he was there interviewing people and there was a, there was a situation where there were a couple of officers who, during training, I think kid, head. Neglected their watch. And so one of the off, one of the candidates owned it immediately and you know, took his punishment and the other guy tried to kind of cover it up and went through several different steps to cover it up instead of just owning it.
And so the guy who just owned up to it. And took, his punishment was still kind of accepted and it was retained in the program. But I’m, the guy who tried to skirt responsibility [00:27:00] was kicked out of the program. You know, nobody, nobody could trust him anymore. And so, and so he, he kind of asked them while he was there, you know, what the both of these guys did, you know, made a major mistake.
You know, I’m neglecting your watch. You know, out in the field is like, it’s, it’s a big no, no. Like that’s just something you don’t do in the military, especially. As an officer. And so why is this guy okay. You know, with everybody, just because he owned up to it, I mean, he’s still made a mistake. He still could have, you know, cos labs out in the field, and they said, no, he, because he owned up to it because he took his punishment and he took responsibility for it.
then we’re all good. You know, like everything’s good. Like we’re, we’re cool with that. but. Skirting responsibility. Improving that you’re untrustworthy is something that’s absolutely not tolerated by those guys. And so that was something that I took away. And something that he actually says was being a true leader starts with telling the truth.
And that kind of goes along with that. He, he talks [00:28:00] about how leaders don’t tell us what we want to hear. They tell us what we need to hear. They tell us the truth. And so that’s kind of where, and I have a different perspective on it, just from being a, a leader in ministry. It’s obviously, truth is a big, big thing in, in the church.
And ministry leaders are obviously, I’m not saying that other people aren’t held to high standards of truth, but ministry leaders really are held to high standards of truth. And that’s kinda how I’ve always seen it, is. if I’m telling people the truth, that’s the first step to being a good minister, being a good leader, being you need to be trustworthy.
And so that’s kind of one of the big things that I took away from it was. was being trustworthy. That’s where good leadership starts is being trustworthy.
Jerred Moon: Yeah. I love that. The book didn’t center a lot on ownership, but I think, you know, ownership is a big part of, leadership in general. But to a point, right?
Like there’s only like if you’re, if you [00:29:00] screw up all the time, but you own it, it’s still like, well, okay, but like, you gotta stop doing that. You’ve got to make a plan for not sucking. you know, and I think that’s, that’s where that, that idea gets really difficult because just to thought experiment that went out further, this Marine screws something up that he should have never screwed up.
He owns it. We’re okay with it. What if he does it again. What do you think the appropriate reaction to that is?
Kyle Shrum: I think he’d be gone if he did it again. I don’t
Jerred Moon: because I think that I owned it again.
Kyle Shrum: Well, I think that goes the other way though, because you’re still proven. Your untrustworthiness like if you keep, if you keep messing up, you’re, you’re screwing up your trustworthiness, right?
Like it doesn’t matter that you own up, that you messed up. It’s like you get like one. Maybe two shots and then you’re gone. You know? Because if after one or two like you’re not trustworthy anymore, it doesn’t matter that you own your mistake, like you still keep making the mistakes, so I can’t trust you to not make
Jerred Moon: the mistake.
Yeah, I completely agree. I just like to, I feel like that, and this just happened a lot in the [00:30:00] military with just that ownership idea, like. Just so everyone’s real clear, like Jocko extreme ownership or whatever, not something he invented. Also not proprietary to the Navy seals in the slightest. That is the military leadership, one-on-one ownership.
If you don’t own things, things are owned for you. Like a couple of years ago when I was probably 10 years ago when nukes were flown in a B2 from like Missouri to California, they fired everyone all the way up to like the highest ranking officer in the air force because they’re like. That’s your fault.
They’re like, I didn’t know about it. Doesn’t matter. That’s your fault. And so that like ownership is forced upon you in the military, even if you don’t want to take your own ownership. And, I think sometimes that it can get lost about, okay, and this is what I see in the saw in the military at like lower level leadership was people were like, Oh yeah, no, that’s totally on me.
Own it, owned it. And then I would see that happen over and over again. I’m like. I don’t think, I think you’re missing the ownership concept here, man. Like you’re, you can’t just keep [00:31:00] messing up and owning it. You got to do something to fix it. And I think that’s where it gets, I think that’s where leadership gets hard.
I think that’s where it gets challenging for the leader to make that decision. Because if you have somebody who’s like, yeah, okay, you know, that that’s on me, or whatever, and you’re like, okay, but like, what do we, what do we do from here? And I think that’s where it gets really messy. cool, man. I think that’s cool.
Kyle Shrum: No. Awesome.
Jerred Moon: Joe, what’d you think of the book?
Joe Courtney: A lot of times it’s that read it. So I had to refresh. But I think it’s really good for people coming into new leadership roles to get into, you know, working their way up in their career because it helps paint the picture and shed the light on how they should be looking at their position.
a lot of people will get into these new positions and go, okay, great. I’m happy about where I came, so what am I go to next? And just forget about who’s under them, who’s behind them. Because they’re focused on getting up and that they’re, they’re just on that upward trajectory, but you got to realize that the people that are under you [00:32:00] that you’re surrounded by are actually what’s going to make you succeed and keeping that human relationship with those people are going to help you build those people up as well as those people are going to lift you up and going back to the military thing.
A chiefs in the air force. They’re the highest enlisted, but they’re always looked at for the people that are there to help those under them because they’ve reached their leadership position. So all they should be doing is helping the people around and under them. And those are the best chiefs that everybody loves.
And the ones that you don’t like are the ones that are still worried about themselves and worried about what they’re doing versus helping you do what you’re doing. So it paints a good picture of how it puts it into context about how when you get up there, and you should still be working on the people that are around you that are under you, because they’re essentially gonna lift you up to the next stage.
So if you lift somebody up to where you are, then you’re going to have to go somewhere too, and you’re going to have to, you’re just going to go up again.
Jerred Moon: Ashley.
Ashley Hicks: I really liked the book. I will say that [00:33:00] it is my first audio book that I listened to all the way through. So, yeah. so I’m on the audio book train kind of. but I, the biggest takeaway I took from it was empathy. If you have to be relatable and people, especially your employees, if you are leading employees, or.
In general in life. If you have a coach or somebody I know we can all think of teachers, coaches, and that’s kind of what I, when I was listening to this, it made me think back on old bosses whether good or bad. I’ve had as well as old coaches through throughout sports. I played soccer. Pretty much all my life.
And I’ve had some great ones and I’ve had some really bad ones and a lot of it. what I really liked was the fact that if you could become approachable and have someone come up and say, you know, I’m really struggling because of X, Y, and Z, that that made such a huge difference in companies as well as, you know, I’m sure it would.
Be the same way on a, on a team of [00:34:00] some sport, on of some sort. so that was my biggest takeaway from that is you have to be relatable. And then I really liked the studies that are, I don’t know if they were necessarily studies or he just basically was taking statistics about like how if people were.
Basically like numbers. If you didn’t see the people, if that you were just in a big group of, just like one big number that the people up top were able to make decisions that not necessarily work great for the people that were on in the bottom, if you will. Because you. Aren’t able to see them and you aren’t able to see what you’re doing to those people.
So it just always made me think of, it kind of made me think about the military and all honesty. You know, sometimes I think people at the top, don’t see how they are inversely, affecting those that like quality of life and so many different things. So, Yeah. I really, really liked the book though.
It was, it was a good read.
Joe Courtney: They did it. They did [00:35:00] a study with electroshock. Well, in regards to that, like they would either shock somebody that they could see or something that they couldn’t see and the person that they couldn’t see, they would shock a whole lot more because they couldn’t see him because they was just out of sight, out of mind.
They didn’t need to care about them. But like if they actually saw the person, then they actually cared about them. That’s just how they reflect taking into, to leadership, because you should be in and around your people so that you care more about them.
Jerred Moon: Yeah. And I think leadership is so complicated, and I don’t pretend to have any experience that I don’t.
So like I cannot imagine. Running an organization the size of the United States army or air force and trying to make a decision that’s going to trickle down all the way to the bottom and be good for everyone. I know that they should and a lot of the good leaders do, but I can’t even imagine how difficult that is.
And the same with like, that’s why I don’t normally judge. In general, I’m not talking about, you know, Trump or [00:36:00] like just presidents. I try not to judge them too harshly, just cause I’m like, I can’t imagine, you know, the, the, the burden that that has. And I think every stage of leadership, whether you know, it’s.
10 people, 50 people it, I feel like the principal, a lot of the principles are the same, but the execution is a lot harder and a lot more complex because smaller teams obviously a little bit easier. Like this team, like we all see each other, you know, all the time. And so that’s helpful and we’re kind of close.
But like if we were to jump up to this being a team of 50. You know, I’m sure that there would be some people get lost in the cracks and it brings us challenges. And then, you know, transferring to people like Jocko, he writes some amazing stuff on leadership and you know, based off of his leadership experience.
But at the same time, I mean, Jocko didn’t make it up to like the highest levels of military leadership. And I sometimes I wish he did because I think his principles are sound and would do really well [00:37:00] with the complexities at that level are just so. So crazy. And, anyway, I, I try not to fall to anybody who’s just trying at leadership in general because it’s like, damn, like I, yeah.
I don’t know what it’d be like to be in that position. And I think my takeaway is very similar to yours, Ashley, was this. I wrote down human to human. Like everything is human to human and cause he does a lot of this is like a related to towards business and stuff. You know, like that’s how, and that’s a lot of his books are that way.
And in business you can be a B to B business. So you do business with other businesses. Like if I was a paper company that sold paper to other businesses or like garage Mafi, we’re B to C business to consumer. We don’t serve other businesses. We help. A person, an individual, and so business to consumer. but none of that matters, right?
It doesn’t matter. Like the people who buy things are humans. You’re a human. Everything is human to human. So if you can just be a good human. [00:38:00] Like that’s going to, you know, having integrity, building relationships, communicating frequently, having empathy, like all the traits that it takes to be a good human, I think is what’s going to foster a great leadership over time.
And he didn’t really put that as like his takeaway in the book. That was more of like a negative, how to be a bad leader is to like, not think of the humans, like all the humans in your organization, but I think kind of reversing that as like the way to really. Be good at leadership, and I think fostering autonomy, he talks about that a little bit.
I think that’s really hard. I think that’s much harder than he gives it credit for in the book. Just from my experience in the military, and even, you know, with this team, this team, like you guys are F fairly autonomous, like we meet once a week and like, I don’t. You know, I, other than that, I don’t really know what you’re doing.
You know what I mean? Like, and it doesn’t matter to me cause things are getting done. But, like I know autonomy with someone who doesn’t want to work hard. if you’ve ever, like, that’s the thing [00:39:00] in the military is like, you can be stuck with some people who like. You can’t really fire people in the military, you just can’t make their life worse.
Yeah. And so, and I’ve been in that situation too, where you get an 18 year old kid who doesn’t want to work. They’re kind of pissed about the job they have. And you’re like. How do I motivate this person? How do I foster autonomy? And a person who doesn’t care and doesn’t want to do this? And, and, and so that was kind of a negative critique of the book is I don’t think he, I don’t feel like he did a good job.
Going into some of the practical implications of what he’s saying, you know, because it’s kind of like, I’m like, if he asked me how to PR your back squat, and I was like, well, you go out, to your garage, you load on more weight than you’ve ever done, and then you squat down and then you stand up and that’s how you PR your back squat.
Like, Whoa, there’s, there’s probably something missing. Right. And that’s kind of how some of his ideas came across to me. He’s like. Be empathetic, you know, foster autonomy. Those are great ideas, [00:40:00] dude. Do you have any idea how hard those things are are to do in practical terms at all these different levels of leadership?
And I don’t think that he did a phenomenal job exploring those things overall, though his big ideas are great and I think that there are great for a leadership book. And that’s just kinda my, my take on it. Like. Scott and I went through ROTC together, so reserves officer drank, or at Texas tech university.
When you’re going through it, it feels kind of silly and I’m sure you know, like Scott probably hasn’t even truly experienced it yet because he didn’t, he’s not out yet, but how valuable some of that stuff is later. Like. It’s kind of crazy. You know, people pay a lot of money, tens of thousands of dollars to get that type of leadership training that we got in the military, and it’s super useful and also teaches you a lot about human behavior.
And I think that that it goes a long way and it’s a, leadership is tough, but I think it’s a decent book. His new book, infinite game is really awesome though. Just came out in 2019. [00:41:00] Any other topics or ideas, thoughts on a leaders eat last? He knocked it out of the park with a book title. . Yeah, yeah, yeah. He did.
Kyle Shrum: It made me want to read it.
Jerred Moon: Exactly.
Kyle Shrum: Leaders eat last. Oh, I like that idea. Yeah, but that’s where he starts though, is that that empathy of putting others ahead of yourself and. Being selfless as a leader in those kinds of things.
Jerred Moon: And I guess otherwise his new book, the infinite game is kind of about, it’s about creating a business that is kind of putting human, the human race ahead of your business, like loss while still trying to be profitable because you have to be profitable.
And, what was the, the example, I love that he’d mentioned in that book when. And I think I’ve mentioned on the podcast before, but when CVS took away cigarettes, so if you guys didn’t know, CVS does not sell cigarettes at all anymore, and they, they made that like their core values and visions and all this vision statement was like, [00:42:00] we’re, we’re about health, we’re about people living better lives.
And then people were like, that’s great. Why do you sell cigarettes? And they’re like, you know what? You’re right. And so they stopped selling cigarettes and they thought that. People would be like, okay, that’s dumb cause everyone’s just going to go buy cigarettes at Walgreens now. But they did all these studies and they found out that cigarette sales did not just increase.
They actually just went down after CVS started that and nicotine patches and gum and all that stuff went up. So their decision, you know, I think it might be quantified in the book cause thousands and thousands of people, if not tens of thousands of people to just like. Stop smoking because a company made it a decision for humanity and aligned to their core values as opposed to just trying to make, be a profitable business.
So I think, definitely check out his other book too. It’s really good. All right. Workout, Ashley, you want a brief
Ashley Hicks: it or, it is a 2000 meter row or run time trial. And then you [00:43:00] get to rest for seven minutes after that glorious time trial, and you have nine minutes to complete, as many burpees as you possibly can.
and if you. I have reached 109 reps or higher in that nine minutes. The burpees have saved you, but if you get 108 or less, you have not been saved and you have to do another 2000 meter run row time trial.
Joe Courtney: It’s called burpee saved me. Oh,
Ashley Hicks: yes.
Jerred Moon: Sorry. Oh, that. Neither one of us say it. I don’t think so. I said the workout and then, yeah.
All right, nice. So a tips, tricks, strategies.
Ashley Hicks: I like burpees, I’ll say on this one. And I, I will say I pace out the burpees a little bit. I, but I keep moving. So how I do that, I kinda wrote it out in my notes here, but when I stand up, I kind of click my feet together and that’s my second of rest, if you will.
And then I go back down. [00:44:00] I have to,
Jerred Moon: yes.
Joe Courtney: Picture in a heel, click mid air. Like a leprechaun.
Jerred Moon: I
Ashley Hicks: stand straight up and then I have my foot touch my other foot and it goes back and then I go back down. but that’s the only way for me to continuously do burpees when I start to get tired. But I never stop.
Cause if I stop, there’s no way I could make this in that time restraint.
Jerred Moon: I have curved very well burpees per minute. Yeah,
Ashley Hicks: it’s a pain. It’s a pretty big, and I find that I go obviously faster at the beginning, and then I start to slow myself down. so that is my, I hate doing the Jerredd just go fast, but you have to kind of keep moving throughout these burpees.
You can’t stop and, you know, take 10 to 20 seconds of rest. I think that would, you know. You wouldn’t make the time cap in my personal opinion, unless you’re just super efficient and super fast at getting down and getting back up.
Jerred Moon: But. I will say I do email it until I [00:45:00] can’t really, yeah. So I th I do 12, toe burpees on the minute every minute until I can’t.
Wow. If that makes sense. And what I mean camp is if I’m getting, if just the, the time lapses, if it takes me more than a minute to 12 burpees on like minute seven or whatever, then I’m going to do what you said. And I’m just shooting to not stop and go as fast as I can and probably up to like 15 or plus burpees per minute.
That is very hard strategy, but something everyone could try. My real advice for this one is lay down after the time trial. If you legitimately do a 2000 meter a row, specifically time trial time trial, not just like, this is where you, you could do whatever, like you could just like. Do a 15 minute, 2000 meter and it’s not a big deal, but if you actually try, you’re going to be pretty spent.
And then I think that you should lay down, lie down, recover [00:46:00] fetal position, like Joe said, and just like, don’t move. For seven minutes and get fully recovered before you start the burpees, because I, and I don’t normally suggest that in a workout, but you have that recovery period and you need to get as recovered as possible.
So slam the tart cherry juice and then get in the fetal position and then start to nap
Kyle Shrum: or choke very if you’re in Minnesota.
Jerred Moon: Well timed. That was good. All right, Joe tips. I kind
Joe Courtney: of do the, if I were to do a ton of burpees, is I do the kind of Ashley’s way of, keeping with a pace instead of doing a whole bunch and then recovering cause this, this equates to about a five second burpee or suburbia every five seconds, which is a pretty slow burpee.
So if you do a Barbie every four seconds. It’s still a slow burpee, but you’re going to have a little bit of rest in between. Does it, you know, every 10 or 15 is, I’d say every 15 take 10 seconds to breathe, to do whatever, and then go back to your slow and steady pace. That’s why, how it affected to do it.
Jerred Moon: I’ve done this where I got a lot [00:47:00] and I’ve never not been saved, which is good. Aim it. And, so I don’t have a lot of tips for anybody going into that second 2000 meter row, survive. Kyle, have you done it. Putting you on the spot. No one else.
Kyle Shrum: Yes, I have done it and I did not get saved.
Jerred Moon: There you go.
Kyle Shrum: I don’t think that’s, I don’t think that’s shocking to anybody, but I would say the 2000 meter row is one of our tests. It’s one of our fit week tests. and. A while back. We had somebody, I don’t remember who it was, but I saved the video and I watched this video every time I’m gonna test a 2000 meter row, there’s this, this British dude, who was a professional rower.
He rode for their Olympic team and all that kind of stuff.
Jerred Moon: While doing a sub sentiment.
Kyle Shrum: He does it like six and a half minutes. I think he’s
Jerred Moon: talking to me the entire
Kyle Shrum: time and it’s unbelievable how he does it, but it’s really good. It’s a really, really [00:48:00] good video. It’s really long because he like goes through his whole like pacing strategy of like, this is how I put together a patient strategy and it’s like when I get to this point, I want this, I want this to be my pace, and if it’s not and then they speed up or I need to slow down or whatever, but it’s really, really good for.
I actually PR my two K row, after watching that video and on P audit
Jerred Moon: by that somewhere that maybe we could share with everyone listening.
Kyle Shrum: Yes, I do have it say, okay,
Jerred Moon: let’s, let’s kind of go to the show notes if we can.
Kyle Shrum: I know that it’s in the Facebook group somewhere as well, but yes. Yeah, I know where it is.
anyway, I would say have a patient strategy for their, obviously you want it to be a fast pace. Because it’s a time trial. You don’t just want to, you know, if you’re just gonna mosey through it, there’s no point in having a pacing strategy. But I would say watch that video and learn how to pace it out.
And that’s actually really going to help you with the two K row. You’re still going to be spent. So do all these other things that we’ve talked about for the, for the workout. but learn how to pace it to K Kay Rowan, it’s actually going to help you a whole
[00:49:00] Jerred Moon: lot and that just watch the video for. This guy can row twoK faster than I can, which I’m not like amazing at it, but still he’s talking you through it and he does it in like six 30 I’m like, you are some sort of animal.
He’s like, , I’m getting tired so I’m gonna do this. And I’m like, what are you doing right now? I couldn’t, I can’t even like. Almost say a word during a two
Kyle Shrum: K row and it’s all on a British accent, which makes it more fun,
Jerred Moon: more enjoyable to listen to. Yep. All right, so what do we do on that second two K?
Like what’s, Oh,
Kyle Shrum: survive it.
Jerred Moon: Just like go. Just go slow. Like you go fast on the first one and then,
Kyle Shrum: yeah.
Jerred Moon: Survive. See, if I would have, if I could rewrite this workout, which the laws of garage Malik say I can’t, is that. I would have some sort of way to make you go fast on the first two K, like something calculated out.
I know it says time trial, so [00:50:00] it’s, it’s up to, it’s a matter of personal integrity, but you could, you could just like sandbag, like I said, a 15 minute to K and then the burpees would be actually really easy, you know? So, yeah. I’m not saying you would do it know. all right. Cool. That’s it. well everyone, thanks for listening to the podcast.
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